There are two basic ways of looking at any situation. They are, given the facts, either (A) "This is what I want the facts to be" or (B) "This is what the facts are." This dichotomy extends to how we look at the world, our worldviews. We see the world either as we want it to be or as it is.
Imagine a friend has suffered from cancer, and is now told that it is gone. An example of A is to think your friend is free from cancer forever. An example of B is to think that your friend is free from cancer for now. What distinguishes these worldviews? Someone subscribing to A (Person A) hopes the information will lead to a favorable conclusion and, then, for whatever reason, decides to believe it will. Someone subscribing to B (Person B) might hope for the same, but does not decide to believe it.
Logically, Person A's reasoning is:
1. X says that Y attains now.
2. I want Y to attain forever.
3. Therefore, Y attains forever.
Person B's reasoning is identical to Person A's in premises 1 and 2, but it differs in its conclusion as:
3. Therefore, Y attains now (and I must wait to see if it attains forever).
It is easy to see that Person A is behaving irrationally while Person B is not. Yet, it is not always so easy to decide what is rational. Think about the Sun rising each day. Is it rational or irrational to think that the Sun will rise tomorrow because it rose today and yesterday? Strictly speaking, it is irrational. The past cannot assure the future.
Yet, if we actually thought this way, then we would not make many rational decisions. Our motto would be "Induction Good, Deduction Bad." Of course, we might have trouble convincing nonbelievers that induction will continue to be good. The laws of nature, and, consequently, the laws of logic, could change at any moment, so who is to say what is good or bad, or true or false, at a future time?
Rationality is found in probability. The Sun will probably rise tomorrow given its past and present actions. My friend is probably free from cancer forever given the past success of a certain drug and my friend's present state of health. These are rational assumptions only because they are probabilistic. Were they deterministic, assuming what must be instead of what might be, then they would be irrational. There is a world of difference between probabilistic and deterministic assumptions in this regard. The former represents the world of reality and the latter represents the world of fantasy. The former reflects what we know and the latter reflects what we wish we knew.
Now, think about this in terms of religious belief. Religious belief involves belief in the truth of a religious claim(s). Moreover, especially with Western monotheistic religions, religious belief extends to include faith that certain logically implausible or impossible claims are true, which makes this type of faith one that holds despite the evidence. In other words, religious belief is admitted as irrational by those who hold it.
I am not arguing, mind you, that theists are genetically hardwired to be irrational. Theists are no different from atheists with respect to their brains' logical, pattern-matching functionality. The difference between theists and atheists is that theists are willing to accept irrational beliefs and behaviors in one, peculiar area of their lives, namely, that which concerns religion. Why? Why should religious belief, probably the most important kind of belief a person can have, be tolerated if it is irrational? What makes theists buy into it?
It is precisely because religious belief is so important that people want to have it so much and are willing to do anything, even to embrace irrationality, leading to such horrors as war, the destruction of our planet, and, potentially, the destruction of our species. People will do anything for what religious belief offers, which includes immortality, eternity with loved ones, and ecstatic joy. People will do anything for a glimpse of Heaven.
What I have never understood is why so many people are unwilling to give up their dreams when the hard, cold facts of reality affirm that those dreams cannot be real. Our experience of the world tells us that people do not have souls, so why do we believe they do? Our experience of the world tells us that time does not stop, so why do we think it has? Why do people believe so many far-fetched claims? Furthermore, why do they believe them with such supreme confidence when, even if probable, they might not be impossible to disprove? What prevents a person from thinking rationally? What allows a person to embrace irrationality? Is it emotional overload? Is it poor education in reasoning? What separates theists from atheists on these important points? Despite the temptation, I refuse to believe that we are different. After all, theists become atheists and atheists become theists. It just seems that something within the human mind switches off and stops working or malfunctions when people choose to believe irrational claims and to believe them decisively. Something is wrong with theists.
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Mon, 2005-12-19 17:13
"It just seems that something within the human mind switches off and stops working or malfunctions ..."
Sounds as good an explanation as any to me.
Mon, 2005-12-19 22:23
I would like to challenge your assumption That in order to be a theist, you must be thinking irrationaly. You see I have been sort of an atheist for most of my life. Not so much an atheist, but someone who didn't really give my personal beliefs much thought. So I really didn't have any, one way or the other. What I did put much time into was physics and astronomy. I'm certainly no genius, but I have read books on Einsteins theory of relativity (special and general), but it was when I was reading a book on string theory, that triggered a thought. The book was talking about parallel universes having different gravitational forces and all kind of crazy stuff that I'm not sure I can really buy into. Or perhaps it is just over my head, Ill be the first one to admit it. But the phrase "different gravitational forces" hit me like a ton of bricks. What if gravity was different. Even slightly. When two objects of mass double their distance, their gravitational force gets cut in half. I thought to myself, what if intead of being cut in half (.500) it was cut by (.400). Nothing would be here. The planets wouldn't be in orbit, so nothing else could be as we know it.
Take this thought of a natural law like gravity being different, and apply it to any law in physics. The same thing would happen. We wouldn't exist. Change any rule of quantum mechanics in any slight way, the atom won't exsist (at least the way we need it for matter), nor would we.
So what is logical? to say all the rules of physics and quantum mechanics, and science in general, exsist exactly the way they do by mere chance. Or was set forth by some creator. If it is by chance, then your saying that there must be an infinate amount of universes each with a different set of laws for physics and so on. That way, having an infinate amount of combinations of physical laws, eventually you would have a universe like ours. Or they could just be one universe that had its laws of science set forth by a creator. To me logic dictates that the simplest solution is the correct one.
Not everyone that believes in god, does it for the promise of heaven (i dont even plan for next week). Some of us got there logically
Tue, 2005-12-20 00:51
The "fine tuning" argument does not hold water for me. This does not seem to be the best of all possible worlds.
You cannot call yourself a genius. The title must be bestowed on you by others, most of whom are not as intelligent or accomplished as you (hence, the title). This particular title is useful only for boosting egos, so I would say that it is particularly useless.
Tue, 2005-12-20 07:56
I think I said "I am certainly no genius". Trust me, I make no claim of being a genius. I have had my IQ tested, and the results do not allow me to have the title. I am only saying that I have the capacity to understand any of the concepts other genius present. If I were a genius, I would be the one comming up with the greats such as E=mc*2.
Tue, 2005-12-20 08:02
What do you mean "this does not seem to be the best of all possible worlds" are saying there is another universe where phisical rules are such that life can exists. perhaps even better. The fact is, if any law was different, life would not exist. So you can say it doesn't hold water. Pick a law, change it, see what the results are.
Tue, 2005-12-20 17:05
You missed my point about genius. No IQ test can tell you if you are a genius. First, you have to actually do something, like discover a physical law, create a great work of art, write a symphony, or invent a new technology. Second, people have to tell your friends, usually after you die, that what you did was marvelous, something that only a genius could do (i.e., something that your worshippers think they could never do).
You also missed my point about fine tuning. Saying that things are perfect the way they are is akin to admitting that cancer is good. Can you imagine a better world? Well, then, this is not the best of all worlds. Case closed.
If you disagree, then you are not thinking clearly. :)
Wed, 2005-12-21 10:40
"case closed", "if you disagree...(with me)"
Shame, shame, shame Ubey, you sound like a closed minded individual. I believe Jim has made the most sense on this page so far. Don't rule his thinking out due to your closed mindedness.
Also, as far as "Genius" goes, you may want to look up definitions before you talk so boldly. Check out the very last sentence as Webster defines it. (notice the words, intelligence quotient)
Inflected Form(s): plural ge·nius·es or ge·nii /-nE-"I/ b : extraordinary intellectual power especially as manifested in creative activity c : a person endowed with transcendent mental superiority; especially : a person with a very high intelligence quotient
Etymology: Latin, tutelary spirit, natural inclinations, from gignere to beget
1 a plural genii : an attendant spirit of a person or place b plural usually genii : a person who influences another for good or bad
2 : a strong leaning or inclination : PENCHANT
3 a : a peculiar, distinctive, or identifying character or spirit b : the associations and traditions of a place c : a personification or embodiment especially of a quality or condition
4 plural usually genii : SPIRIT, JINNI
5 plural usually geniuses a : a single strongly marked capacity or aptitude
synonym see GIFT
Wed, 2005-12-21 20:57
Guest, you have not stated why Jim makes the most sense, so you have shown that I should not give your opinion any importance.
Regarding the various uses of the word genius, the intended definition is found in the fifth, part c. That much is obvious.
If I am close-minded, I am close-minded to thinking irrationally. Sometimes, even I leave the door ajar, unfortunately.
Wed, 2005-12-21 21:35
If you were indeed thinking rationally you would not have to have me explain to you why Jim makes the most sense.
Regarding your feedback on genius, thank you for clarifying my point: 5c--"especially : a person with a very high intelligence quotient". (intelligence quotient is an IQ test FYI) Anyway, you totally missed Jim's point. I did not think it that difficult to grasp, perhaps you were just looking for a diversion since you had no concrete argument against his main purpose of what he wrote.
Ah, selectively closed minded, indeed. So I assume you speak of what is irrational from your limited point of view?
Thu, 2005-12-22 02:40
Guest, you continue to provide no explanation for your assertions. By all accounts, I can assure you that I grasp more than you and Jim combined on topics of genius and creationism. (Of course, this isn't difficult considering that you display zero knowledge of either topic.) Please stop wasting my time. If you can provide a reason why Jim's regurgitation of the fine tuning argument is sound, then I will listen. Until then, I suppose you will have to live with our dueling egos, which make us neither right nor wrong.