Provided there remains the opportunity for thought, choice, and idea we, as human kind, should be able to overcome any group that tries to force their beliefs onto others.
Atheism is leading us towards the decline of Western Culture.
This is of course not a reason to believe in God, but is an answer to those people who accuse Christians of horrendous crimes and simply dismiss God as a result.
There is no denying the church has been guilty of perpetrating evil, and it will continue to do so if it refuses to listen to Christ's words, 'Love one another - Turn the other cheek - Love your enemies'.
Authentic Christianity does not kill, persecute or wield power over others. Concerning power, Jesus urged us to put down power and take up love.
Christ tells me to consider other's needs before my own - if everyone did this, the world would be a very different place. He tells me to turn the other cheek and to make no enemies but to treat those who call me an enemy with love and respect. I am commanded to forgive others endlessly and to give (freely and with no thought of reward) to those who are in need.
I am told to treat material goods as of fleeting and little value. In effect, the message is to value others.
Any Christian who does not do this to all others is gravely mistaken.
This message is in stark contrast to the message of contemporary Western culture where I am urged to put myself before others.
Television is the greatest teacher of ideas and attitudes - billions of pounds spent on advertising attest to this. Television's message through advertising (and therefore a picture of what humanity values and is telling itself) is as follows:
I don't drive the right car,
Or have a big enough house - with enough appliances.
My clothes aren't new enough or stylish enough,
My hair isn't the right colour or shiny enough or even strong enough - split ends are a disgrace, as is dandruff.
My white's aren't white enough.
My skin is too wrinkled and not tanned enough.
I don't holiday in the right places or eat at good enough restaurants.
I am too fat or just the wrong shape.
I don't eat enough fast food.
I don't have enough debt.
My breasts aren't big enough.
My teeth aren't white enough or are too crooked.
My lipo hasn't been sucked enough.
I am not famous enough.
And on...
And on...
This is about the best that Atheism seems to be able to manage on a mass scale.
Whilst Christianity urges serving others, and good stewardship of this planet, contemporary culture urges me to consider image over substance, consider myself before others, and leads me into a hedonistic experience of life where the key aim is to earn enough money to be able to indulge in whatever is popular at the moment.
As Western Society shakes off its Christian heritage it seems to be unable to replace it with anything substantive, and one might justifiably worry about its future.
If atheism is defined as lack of belief in a god, then your argument fails. If it is defined as belief in the nonexistence of a god, then your argument is questionable, and, most importantly, you have not argued your case. Long comment. No case.
You claim to know an "authentic Christian" when you see one. Guess how many Christians say that? All of them say that. You are showing how silly it is to claim what you and millions of others do, namely, that you know absolute truth.
I worry about the future only because religion still exists.
You only have to look to the founder of Christianity to see what an authentic Christian is. Christ defined very clearly what authentic Christianity consists of.
Any person claiming to be a Christian and not following Christ's teaching is in error - Christ said of his followers "...by their works shall they be known." He anticipated the misuse and abuse of Christianity.
So there is certainly an authentic Christian, and it is someone who's actions are in accord with Christ's teachings.
Also you 'worry about the future only because religion still exists'. This seems to ignore the fact that we have managed to get to where we are today with the huge part that religion has played right throughout history. I think it is sloppy thinking to blame religion for all humanity's ills and give it no credit for any of the good that it has done. It is certainly a very selective and biased view of history and modernity.
And if you wish (as many do) to go down the road of accusing religion of being at the root of most wars I will quote Vox Day -
"Who has not heard the Catholic Spanish Inquisition, (2,000 death sentences passed on to the Spanish Crown over 349 years) conflated with the pagan Holocaust (12 million murders in five years), and the atheist slaughters of the Great Terror, the Great Leap Forward and the Killing Fields. (4 million murders in 20 years, 30 million murders in 3 years and 2 million murders in four years, respectively.) And it is commonly asserted that religion is a major cause of war, although, as I have previously demonstrated, religion has only played a role in about 10 percent of all the wars in recorded history.
And as for my argument, we can substitute for atheism, 'secular humanism', 'existentialism', 'materialism' or a whole host of ideologies - 'marxism' to 'capitalism'.
Nothing here offers a comprehensive view of how we should treat one another, from corporate and social rsponsibility down to individual ethics. Christianity does. In fact most of the above create a moral vacuum where the worst of humanity can exhibit itself.
Regarding the silly claim of knowing absolute truth. I believe in God and Christ and believe that his teaching is humanity's best hope. This does not make me arrogant - I do not wish to force my views on anyone. I do not agree with many of the things the church has done in its past and present. I believe the church should not hold power, because it is corrupted as a result. Christ urges Christians to lay down power and take up love and the service of others.
I do not even say I am very good at keeping his teachings, I am often woefully inadequate - so I am not in a position to judge anyone else.
And regarding our other conversation, I believe in evolution, but differ with you when I believe that God kick-started it, and it was set up in such a way to produce us.
You do not understand the problem. You claim to know an authentic Christian when you see one, but every person who calls himself a Christian says the same thing, and look how many different Christian beliefs and denominations we have and have had. I'm sorry, but your assertion is laughable.
And, saying that atheists have caused anywhere near as much violence as theists is beyond laughable. It is patently insane.
And, Christianity does not offer a realistic ethical standard. It is stagnant. Morality must evolve, like life.
You have done nothing to engage with what I have actually said. You have just gone on to make even more statements - statements which leave me to believe that you did not read what I have written (fair enough, your prerogative).
It is a relatively simple statement of fact and one that would be quite easy to understand if you were not over-intent on finding the flaw in the argument. The rules of Christianity were set down by Christ. He defined what it was to be a Christian. Anyone claiming to be a Christian and flagrantly disregarding or unashamedly acting contrary to Christ's teaching has to wonder whether they are a Christian or are simply a Christian 'in error'.
Christ said that '...Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father which is in heaven'.
Again, Christ recognised that many people would claim to be Christian (some people are Christians in the same way that other people have hobbies or are part of a social set).
If you judge Christianity on the basis of some of it's supposed adherents, you may as well judge the whole of science on the basis of pseudo-scientific crackpots.
Christianity is blighted by people who join the priesthood as a career, instead of people who have had a real conversion experience.
You also seem to accuse anyone's argument that you do not agree with as 'silly' 'insane' or 'laughable'. This is intolerant and actually quite arrogant.
Your last two statements do not stand up - shall we talk numbers when it comes to killings by the religious versus atheist killings.
Regarding the stagnant ethical standards - its a big debate really, but you should really understand Christianity if you want to effectively attack it.
And why exert so much effort attacking it... you achieve nothing. People will continue to convert to it. I converted very quickly from a position of having a secular English education and being an absolute disbeliever, in fact I mocked the religious. The move from Christianity in western culture (predicted by Christ as an end-times apostacy) has been accompanied by an unprecedented rise in new age beliefs etc. If Christianity is dangerous because of its acceptance of the seemingly irrational, then these beliefs are equally so. Atheism is certainly not on the rise.
Would you care to spend some time refuting my statements instead of posturing?
I understand Christianity, probably better than you. I was a devout Christian for over 10 long, depressing, anxiety-ridden years.
You wrote: "If you judge Christianity on the basis of some of it's supposed adherents, you may as well judge the whole of science on the basis of pseudo-scientific crackpots."
This is a poor analogy, since most science is conducted by non-crackpots, it actually produces results that people can use, and it constantly revises those results to better represent reality. Christianity, on the other hand, is "conducted" by what you call sinful people who constantly make mistakes, have no standards for judging right from wrong at an absolute where-it-counts level (which only your god can do), and have no desire to question their beliefs when they make mistakes. Mistakes like rape, torture, and genocide.
I am not attacking you. I am trying to show you how ignorant you are showing yourself to be. You believe in a book that says it was written by a god and you believe in that god because it says he exists in that book. This is idiocy, lunacy.
I suppose I couldn't really say whether you know Christianity better than I do. I would question what kind of church you got involved with. There is a saying - ' some people have just enough religion to hate, but not quite enough to love'. A little religion is a very dangerous thing. I have seen enough Christians who wield the bible like a weapon and use it to beat both believers and non-believers alike.
I appreciate you are not attacking me individually and I can understand that you would want to liberate someone from ignorance. Your motives are good and I believe sincerely felt.
If you don't mind being open I would like to understand what made you depressed and anxious as a Christian. I can accept that you may not wish to in a public medium.
And I accept the analogy doesn't carry that much weight, but it is a serious point that any endevour can be judged by those who misrepresent it. You seem to be judging Christianity by those who wear it as a badge whilst still committing evil, (I lived in the Middle-East and there are many people who were born into Christian communities and are Christian by default but hate others around them and pay lip service to Christ)it's worst converts, or simply by those sincere people who admit to failure and giving in to temptation -
".... people who constantly make mistakes, have no standards for judging right from wrong at an absolute where-it-counts level (which only your god can do), and have no desire to question their beliefs when they make mistakes. Mistakes like rape, torture, and genocide."
When I fail, it does cause me to question my beliefs (I am forced to ask - is there no power for change in the gospel) - but I do not judge Christianity by my own actions - I am imperfect and a work in progress. How can the truth of Christianity be found in myself. I have experienced severe doubts at times, but I always end up coming back to Jesus - he was utterly unique and obviously far from insane, but made seemingly insane claims about himself. His teaching and understanding of human nature is so far beyond any other individuals, and his moral framework was incredible - certainly not stagnant. I could go on and on....
And you simplify my reasons for belief to a painful degree. My reasons have more basis and are more complex that the tautology you mention.
I appreciate your response. I do not believe in any gods because I am unable to do so. I have no choice. If you believe in a god and you find this reasonable, then all I can say, from my perspective, is that you are not looking at the big picture. From my perspective, the supernatural is entirely incomprehensible, by definition, so there is no point in postulating the existence of anything supernatural. We may wish it were true, but wishing is as far as we can go.
The fact remains that there is no reason to adhere to any religion, Christianity included. The Bible says Christianity is true and people who blindly believe that are not thinking clearly. If the Bible disagrees with what we know and have learned about reality, then the Bible is clearly wrong. The Bible disagrees in many places, so it does not represent truth.
Thanks for taking the time to keep up a dialogue. I have been looking at your site - it's excellent and there is a wealth of info here, I'm currently reading 'Struggling Christian'. I agree completely with what he said about you being a reasonable Atheist - you know - the parallel between fundamental Christians and fundamental Atheists.
Its also obvious you have a good brain on you. I was looking at your book list and will be ordering one or two. But I would say it is a little one sided - have you read any Christian apologetics recently because what you are reading is certainly going to bolster what you believe and certainly won't challenge it.
I can live with you thinking I'm ignorant and not thinking clearly. St. Paul wasn't stupid, he said it was all foolishness to the gentiles.
When you say the Bible disagrees with what we know about reality, are you talking about science, history or simple logic?
Thu, 2005-08-25 14:17
Provided there remains the opportunity for thought, choice, and idea we, as human kind, should be able to overcome any group that tries to force their beliefs onto others.
Mon, 2005-11-28 15:39
Atheism is leading us towards the decline of Western Culture.
This is of course not a reason to believe in God, but is an answer to those people who accuse Christians of horrendous crimes and simply dismiss God as a result.
There is no denying the church has been guilty of perpetrating evil, and it will continue to do so if it refuses to listen to Christ's words, 'Love one another - Turn the other cheek - Love your enemies'.
Authentic Christianity does not kill, persecute or wield power over others. Concerning power, Jesus urged us to put down power and take up love.
Christ tells me to consider other's needs before my own - if everyone did this, the world would be a very different place. He tells me to turn the other cheek and to make no enemies but to treat those who call me an enemy with love and respect. I am commanded to forgive others endlessly and to give (freely and with no thought of reward) to those who are in need.
I am told to treat material goods as of fleeting and little value. In effect, the message is to value others.
Any Christian who does not do this to all others is gravely mistaken.
This message is in stark contrast to the message of contemporary Western culture where I am urged to put myself before others.
Television is the greatest teacher of ideas and attitudes - billions of pounds spent on advertising attest to this. Television's message through advertising (and therefore a picture of what humanity values and is telling itself) is as follows:
I don't drive the right car,
Or have a big enough house - with enough appliances.
My clothes aren't new enough or stylish enough,
My hair isn't the right colour or shiny enough or even strong enough - split ends are a disgrace, as is dandruff.
My white's aren't white enough.
My skin is too wrinkled and not tanned enough.
I don't holiday in the right places or eat at good enough restaurants.
I am too fat or just the wrong shape.
I don't eat enough fast food.
I don't have enough debt.
My breasts aren't big enough.
My teeth aren't white enough or are too crooked.
My lipo hasn't been sucked enough.
I am not famous enough.
And on...
And on...
This is about the best that Atheism seems to be able to manage on a mass scale.
Whilst Christianity urges serving others, and good stewardship of this planet, contemporary culture urges me to consider image over substance, consider myself before others, and leads me into a hedonistic experience of life where the key aim is to earn enough money to be able to indulge in whatever is popular at the moment.
As Western Society shakes off its Christian heritage it seems to be unable to replace it with anything substantive, and one might justifiably worry about its future.
Mon, 2005-11-28 18:12
If atheism is defined as lack of belief in a god, then your argument fails. If it is defined as belief in the nonexistence of a god, then your argument is questionable, and, most importantly, you have not argued your case. Long comment. No case.
You claim to know an "authentic Christian" when you see one. Guess how many Christians say that? All of them say that. You are showing how silly it is to claim what you and millions of others do, namely, that you know absolute truth.
I worry about the future only because religion still exists.
Tue, 2005-11-29 14:56
Uberkuh,
You only have to look to the founder of Christianity to see what an authentic Christian is. Christ defined very clearly what authentic Christianity consists of.
Any person claiming to be a Christian and not following Christ's teaching is in error - Christ said of his followers "...by their works shall they be known." He anticipated the misuse and abuse of Christianity.
So there is certainly an authentic Christian, and it is someone who's actions are in accord with Christ's teachings.
Also you 'worry about the future only because religion still exists'. This seems to ignore the fact that we have managed to get to where we are today with the huge part that religion has played right throughout history. I think it is sloppy thinking to blame religion for all humanity's ills and give it no credit for any of the good that it has done. It is certainly a very selective and biased view of history and modernity.
And if you wish (as many do) to go down the road of accusing religion of being at the root of most wars I will quote Vox Day -
"Who has not heard the Catholic Spanish Inquisition, (2,000 death sentences passed on to the Spanish Crown over 349 years) conflated with the pagan Holocaust (12 million murders in five years), and the atheist slaughters of the Great Terror, the Great Leap Forward and the Killing Fields. (4 million murders in 20 years, 30 million murders in 3 years and 2 million murders in four years, respectively.) And it is commonly asserted that religion is a major cause of war, although, as I have previously demonstrated, religion has only played a role in about 10 percent of all the wars in recorded history.
And as for my argument, we can substitute for atheism, 'secular humanism', 'existentialism', 'materialism' or a whole host of ideologies - 'marxism' to 'capitalism'.
Nothing here offers a comprehensive view of how we should treat one another, from corporate and social rsponsibility down to individual ethics. Christianity does. In fact most of the above create a moral vacuum where the worst of humanity can exhibit itself.
Regarding the silly claim of knowing absolute truth. I believe in God and Christ and believe that his teaching is humanity's best hope. This does not make me arrogant - I do not wish to force my views on anyone. I do not agree with many of the things the church has done in its past and present. I believe the church should not hold power, because it is corrupted as a result. Christ urges Christians to lay down power and take up love and the service of others.
I do not even say I am very good at keeping his teachings, I am often woefully inadequate - so I am not in a position to judge anyone else.
And regarding our other conversation, I believe in evolution, but differ with you when I believe that God kick-started it, and it was set up in such a way to produce us.
Regards,
Blacknad.
Tue, 2005-11-29 15:14
You do not understand the problem. You claim to know an authentic Christian when you see one, but every person who calls himself a Christian says the same thing, and look how many different Christian beliefs and denominations we have and have had. I'm sorry, but your assertion is laughable.
And, saying that atheists have caused anywhere near as much violence as theists is beyond laughable. It is patently insane.
And, Christianity does not offer a realistic ethical standard. It is stagnant. Morality must evolve, like life.
Wed, 2005-11-30 15:18
Uberkuh,
You have done nothing to engage with what I have actually said. You have just gone on to make even more statements - statements which leave me to believe that you did not read what I have written (fair enough, your prerogative).
It is a relatively simple statement of fact and one that would be quite easy to understand if you were not over-intent on finding the flaw in the argument. The rules of Christianity were set down by Christ. He defined what it was to be a Christian. Anyone claiming to be a Christian and flagrantly disregarding or unashamedly acting contrary to Christ's teaching has to wonder whether they are a Christian or are simply a Christian 'in error'.
Christ said that '...Not everyone who says to Me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father which is in heaven'.
Again, Christ recognised that many people would claim to be Christian (some people are Christians in the same way that other people have hobbies or are part of a social set).
If you judge Christianity on the basis of some of it's supposed adherents, you may as well judge the whole of science on the basis of pseudo-scientific crackpots.
Christianity is blighted by people who join the priesthood as a career, instead of people who have had a real conversion experience.
You also seem to accuse anyone's argument that you do not agree with as 'silly' 'insane' or 'laughable'. This is intolerant and actually quite arrogant.
Your last two statements do not stand up - shall we talk numbers when it comes to killings by the religious versus atheist killings.
Regarding the stagnant ethical standards - its a big debate really, but you should really understand Christianity if you want to effectively attack it.
And why exert so much effort attacking it... you achieve nothing. People will continue to convert to it. I converted very quickly from a position of having a secular English education and being an absolute disbeliever, in fact I mocked the religious. The move from Christianity in western culture (predicted by Christ as an end-times apostacy) has been accompanied by an unprecedented rise in new age beliefs etc. If Christianity is dangerous because of its acceptance of the seemingly irrational, then these beliefs are equally so. Atheism is certainly not on the rise.
Would you care to spend some time refuting my statements instead of posturing?
Regards,
Blacknad.
Wed, 2005-11-30 15:33
I understand Christianity, probably better than you. I was a devout Christian for over 10 long, depressing, anxiety-ridden years.
You wrote:
"If you judge Christianity on the basis of some of it's supposed adherents, you may as well judge the whole of science on the basis of pseudo-scientific crackpots."
This is a poor analogy, since most science is conducted by non-crackpots, it actually produces results that people can use, and it constantly revises those results to better represent reality. Christianity, on the other hand, is "conducted" by what you call sinful people who constantly make mistakes, have no standards for judging right from wrong at an absolute where-it-counts level (which only your god can do), and have no desire to question their beliefs when they make mistakes. Mistakes like rape, torture, and genocide.
I am not attacking you. I am trying to show you how ignorant you are showing yourself to be. You believe in a book that says it was written by a god and you believe in that god because it says he exists in that book. This is idiocy, lunacy.
Thu, 2005-12-01 12:31
Hi Uberkuh,
I suppose I couldn't really say whether you know Christianity better than I do. I would question what kind of church you got involved with. There is a saying - ' some people have just enough religion to hate, but not quite enough to love'. A little religion is a very dangerous thing. I have seen enough Christians who wield the bible like a weapon and use it to beat both believers and non-believers alike.
I appreciate you are not attacking me individually and I can understand that you would want to liberate someone from ignorance. Your motives are good and I believe sincerely felt.
If you don't mind being open I would like to understand what made you depressed and anxious as a Christian. I can accept that you may not wish to in a public medium.
And I accept the analogy doesn't carry that much weight, but it is a serious point that any endevour can be judged by those who misrepresent it. You seem to be judging Christianity by those who wear it as a badge whilst still committing evil, (I lived in the Middle-East and there are many people who were born into Christian communities and are Christian by default but hate others around them and pay lip service to Christ)it's worst converts, or simply by those sincere people who admit to failure and giving in to temptation -
".... people who constantly make mistakes, have no standards for judging right from wrong at an absolute where-it-counts level (which only your god can do), and have no desire to question their beliefs when they make mistakes. Mistakes like rape, torture, and genocide."
When I fail, it does cause me to question my beliefs (I am forced to ask - is there no power for change in the gospel) - but I do not judge Christianity by my own actions - I am imperfect and a work in progress. How can the truth of Christianity be found in myself. I have experienced severe doubts at times, but I always end up coming back to Jesus - he was utterly unique and obviously far from insane, but made seemingly insane claims about himself. His teaching and understanding of human nature is so far beyond any other individuals, and his moral framework was incredible - certainly not stagnant. I could go on and on....
And you simplify my reasons for belief to a painful degree. My reasons have more basis and are more complex that the tautology you mention.
Regards,
Blacknad.
Thu, 2005-12-01 12:52
I appreciate your response. I do not believe in any gods because I am unable to do so. I have no choice. If you believe in a god and you find this reasonable, then all I can say, from my perspective, is that you are not looking at the big picture. From my perspective, the supernatural is entirely incomprehensible, by definition, so there is no point in postulating the existence of anything supernatural. We may wish it were true, but wishing is as far as we can go.
The fact remains that there is no reason to adhere to any religion, Christianity included. The Bible says Christianity is true and people who blindly believe that are not thinking clearly. If the Bible disagrees with what we know and have learned about reality, then the Bible is clearly wrong. The Bible disagrees in many places, so it does not represent truth.
Thu, 2005-12-01 15:19
Hi Uberkuh,
Thanks for taking the time to keep up a dialogue. I have been looking at your site - it's excellent and there is a wealth of info here, I'm currently reading 'Struggling Christian'. I agree completely with what he said about you being a reasonable Atheist - you know - the parallel between fundamental Christians and fundamental Atheists.
Its also obvious you have a good brain on you. I was looking at your book list and will be ordering one or two. But I would say it is a little one sided - have you read any Christian apologetics recently because what you are reading is certainly going to bolster what you believe and certainly won't challenge it.
I can live with you thinking I'm ignorant and not thinking clearly. St. Paul wasn't stupid, he said it was all foolishness to the gentiles.
When you say the Bible disagrees with what we know about reality, are you talking about science, history or simple logic?
Regards,
Blacknad.